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Online encyclopaedia

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I reverted online because being online was not the point of the pillar and because of [1]. NadVolum (talk) 14:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@NadVolum: I didn't even consider it being on a CD or DVD. I know that Wikipedia is mainly an online encyclopedia, but it is also other things. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say that it is not the point of the pillar? I appreciate your explanation. Interstellarity (talk) 18:06, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the text for the pillar it is all about what it is and isn't because it is an encyclopaedia. There is nothing about what it is or isn't because it is online and being online makes very little difference for that. NadVolum (talk) 18:53, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Inserting "online" to give Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia obfuscates the point of the message. That point is that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not the other things. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Interstellarity: Thanks for your ideas and efforts but I agree with NadVolum and Johnuniq. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:55, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the FAQ should be moved to the article page

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The FAQ already reflects a long-standing consensus about what this page is and provides important context necessary to avoid misunderstandings (e.g., "OMG this is the constitution of Wikipedia!!!!1111oneoneone"). I think at least a simple statement somewhere that "This is not a policy or guideline, or the source for all policies and guidelines" is worth making somewhere in the article, either in a hatnote or an infobox. FOARP (talk) 09:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why? The more you write the more people like that will get confused or argue. NadVolum (talk) 13:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that the reality is that it has a strong place, even though we don't have a category for such a thing. North8000 (talk) 13:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but whilst we don't have a name for what it is, we do have an agreed definition of what it ain't, which possibly should be given a higher billing. FOARP (talk) 15:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is your proposal to add an {{Essay}} tag to the top? –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:19, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No? The proposal is what it says on the tin. My preference is for the FAQ to be in an infobox low down on the page, preferably in the same line but on the opposite side to the existing box for the audio version. If the text is too long it can be truncated with a click-to-expand.
We have the FAQ. The FAQ has consensus. It has existed for a comparable amount of time to the content of the article itself (originally added in 2010 though I think there was an earlier version). It provides important context to the article and should be included there. FOARP (talk) 08:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather not. I think we need a new category for a very very very short list of highly consensus ed core but vague items like this and until then I'd rather not add anything that takes away from it.North8000 (talk) 14:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Basically dilution as in the average weight of each of the five pillars goes down as you add more text outside of them? NadVolum (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not what I meant.....I meant that that wording emphasizes things (and also seem to argue for) that minimize 5P's position in Wikipedia. I'd rather not repeat that on the front page. Also, I don't know the history of the talk page FAQ but in general they are less vetted and get more presence-by-default than the actual page and so this would be a decision to elevate the contents of that FAQ. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:18, 11 April 2024 (UTC).[reply]
I think a lot of what's in WP:5P is presence-by-default. That goes particularly for the bit about gazetteers, and even more for the bit about almanacs which I've never seen anyone seriously defend except by reference to it having been in there a long time and 5P generally not meaning all that much. But if your position is that the FAQ is wrong, then it should be removed entirely. FOARP (talk) 20:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is wrong but there's degrees of wrongness. Removing things that are imperfect is a route to Śūnyatā :-) NadVolum (talk) 22:47, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add WP:5 as a shortcut?

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The revision history shows that many users attempted to add the shortcut WP:5 to this page, but these edits were reverted. This shows that a consensus is needed for us to add this shortcut or not.

Use oppose if you oppose this addition, or support if you agree with adding the WP:5 shortcut. InTheAstronomy32 (talk) 12:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NadVolum, will try to change your mind the old-fashioned way. Will hypnotize you. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

expression "Five Pillars" is unhelpful

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The term "five pillars" is clearly borrowed from Islam, and despite the assertion above that the expression is "not sacred" and does not offend Muslims, it remains, IMHO, rather problematic as a disconcerting and unnecessarily religious reference. I'm not arguing that it is necessarily offensive to Muslims, but consider as well the genuine critics of the Muslim religion - of which there are not a few - they too ought to feel free to participate in Wikipedia without any implicit or explicit hostility. I'm left wondering, and can't decide, whether use of the term "five pillars" might be used either to mock Islam flippantly, or else to compliment Islam reverently? Or perhaps both? Wouldn't entertaining this question at all be something better off simply avoided entirely? I would say so. Neutrality ought to be demonstrated by a matter-of-fact stating of the "Rules" - thereby avoiding cringy terminology that is unnecessarily quirky and off-putting. Enri999 (talk) 23:15, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's lots of uses of 'five pillars'. Do you find someone talking about 'the ten commandments' or 'written in stone' annoying when they're talking about for instance company rules? NadVolum (talk) 15:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When you speak for yourself you can seek to delight your in-group by using whatever witty expressions you think clever, but when you speak on behalf of many others in a collective capacity you have to be more professional. It displays a tone-deaf arrogance to do otherwise. One person at a company sales meeting might harmlessly use a religious metaphor, but it would be inappropriate for the company itself to officially invoke religious language since that risks alienating stakeholders (employees, suppliers, the community) with its unnecessary flippancy. We might also detect here that tendency when a mistake is made to entrench in the bad decision defensively out of pride rather than back down and cut one's losses by doing the right thing. The "Five Pillars of Wikipedia" is a cringe inducing expression that will never become non-controversial by the passage of time. Enri999 (talk) 18:21, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's quite a lot of Muslims around. They don't need you to invent grieviances on their behalf. NadVolum (talk) 14:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't Enri999 (talk) 07:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, it is already quite non-controversial. For my view, I find the use neither flippantly mocking nor reverent. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 07:15, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is this page?

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A policy, a guideline, an essay, a help page, something else? - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:23, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Something else. – Joe (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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